Originally by: CCP Prism X

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I find it hard to understand how anyone can actually believe that we would, intentionally, remove assets from an innocent player. It makes about as much sense as the first 10 revisions of this post of mine. It makes about as much sense as assuming our GMs are divine beings (which is the only way they could be infallible due to their omniscient nature). Heck, it makes as much sense as a Dev stepping into the forum equivalent of an erupting volcano... damn.

We have senior GMs to deal with mistakes made by our GMs. If you believe you've been wronged by a GM, petition to them. You'll make their day if they find anything unlawful in their behavior and our most experienced GMs are quite adept with the whole reasonable doubt thing.

Of course this has happened before, as I said nobody here is omniscient. On the flip side, it has also happened that people who have quite obviously been doing something unlawful petition over and over again to get their 'fine' reimbursed to them. This, quite obviously, wastes our GMs time as well as the time of all players who are waiting for a petition response. I'm not saying whoever you are referring to has been doing anything wrong, I'm merely offering a different perspective.

But my main point is: Petition to the senior GMs. If that doesn't work and they maintain you were acting outside the frame of the law, petition to Internal Affairs. If that doesn't work then the logs are showing you did something unlawful. We don't condone our GMs running amok in some anti-customer frenzy trying to ruin our name (and again, that doesn't mean that it hasn't happened, by accident or malicious intent. But that's why we have watchers who watch the watchers). Never have condoned that, never will. We care, remmber.

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Originally by: Jinx Barker

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Originally by: Cpt Fina

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Originally by: CCP Prism X

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CCP Prism X Stuff

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Can one get isk removed for trades (in game transactions) with "known isk-sellers"?
If so, will CCP make sure that the information about known isk-sellers are handed out to the community or are you expecting us to keep track of the isk-sellers in game?

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I think that what he meant was we just need to make sure we keep common sense about things. If someone buys a Torpedo from you for 3 Billion ISk, then this is a sign that things may not be kosher.

Or if someone buys a Raven from you for 500 Million ISk, well, that is not Kosher either.

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Originally by: Adonis 4174

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No, but if you buy it for megacyte prices they may.

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Originally by: Adonis 4174

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Originally by: Cpt Fina

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Originally by: Adonis 4174

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No, but if you buy it for megacyte prices they may.

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Where did you get that information?

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From an isk seller.

I doubt I can say more but for the record I know they got reported shortly before I found they existed.

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Originally by: Adonis 4174

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Originally by: Cpt Fina

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Originally by: Adonis 4174

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Originally by: Cpt Fina

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Originally by: Adonis 4174

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No, but if you buy it for megacyte prices they may.

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Where did you get that information?

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From an isk seller.

I doubt I can say more but for the record I know they got reported shortly before I found they existed.

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My point was that a sane price for some people isn't sane for others. If CCP tell us that "as long as we use our common sense you're ok" they can pretty much remove isk from whoever they like whenever they want.

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I think the actual reference was selling single units of trit for billions of isk. Can that be a sane price for anyone?

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Originally by: i take

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hehe i find it funny that people actually bring this up..

clearly they only interfear, if they can see that the item have been sold way overpriced or if their are something very odd with the trade. which 99% of the time will mean that it is isk buying/selling.
if you do this and get cought it is your own fault.

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be happy that they actually do something to stop people from buying isk

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I cannot see any questions raised which I haven't already answered (and just because you ask them again in different ways doesn't mean I'm going to answer them differently) so we'll leave it at that.

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Originally by: Ki Tarra

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Originally by: Cpt Fina

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Quote:

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I cannot see any questions raised which I haven't already answered (and just because you ask them again in different ways doesn't mean I'm going to answer them differently) so we'll leave it at that.

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So basically everyone that have a hard time recognizing isk-sellers and either scams or make high margin deals will be risking getting their wallets erased and will have a hard time getting it back.

I think I understand, but I definitely donÆt agree.

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Did you read the above post?

I just finished issuing a bond, raising 2.5 billion ISK from various investors. Now what if one of them was an ISK seller. Do I fear that a GM is going to ban my accounts, or seize my ISK. No!

If CCP finds that some of that money is dirty there are several very simple routes to take.

First they could seize the shares bought with that dirty ISK, then once the dividends are paid out the dirty ISK would be effectively removed from the game.

Second they could return the shares, which I could then sell to a legitamate investor.

Now suppose that my intentions were to scam my investors out of that healthy sum. All I need to do is file a petition along the lines of: Dear GM, I have just screwed all the people out of a health chuck of ISK. Could you please verify that there will be no problems with my keeping it as I would not want to tant my hard earned ISK with any dirty blood money, Thank you.

I doubt that there is anyone out there who is seriously pulling the multi billion ISK scams on a regular basis. When a scam works, and the scammer wants to be in the clear, they only need to get a backgorund check done on the victum. Unlike other games, in this one, proper scams are GM approved.

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Originally by: Ki Tarra

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Edited by: Ki Tarra on 12/09/2007 16:36:40

Originally by: Cpt Fina

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Did YOU read the above posts?

The only guidelines provided are that we should use common sense regarding prices and avoid isk-sellers.

Now how does my post contradict that statement?

I donÆt really care what you say that you think CCP are going to do when a Dev clearly has stated the vague procedures one can follow to minimize the risk.

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If you are so short on common sence that you cannot tell the difference between the two I will give you a number. Any dubious transaction over 95 million should be reported. Does that make you happy?

Oh now you are sure to have problems telling the difference between dubious and practical transactions. Do you need a profit margin now. How about any profit margin of 300%? It is not like there are a lot of opportunities in empire space for 300% profit that could possibly be mistaken with ISK trade.

How much hand holding do you people need?

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How about any profit margin of 300%?

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Just give us ONE case where the appeals process has failed to find the innocent to be innocent.

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Originally by: Ki Tarra

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Originally by: Cpt Fina

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People make multibillion transactions on a daily basis, investing years of hard earned ISK. You don't see why they would've want a set of guidelines to minimize the risk of getting their ISK removed?

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Those who make multibillion ISK transactions do so because they have the common sense and business savy to get multi-billions. They are not likely to fall victum to accusations of ISK purchasing, due to their abundant supply of common sense.

I am not going to try and guess whether or not you have suffience common sense to work your way into the multibillion ISK crowd. Time will tell.

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We keep talking about theorectic senarios. Give us one real world senario. Please, just one.

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Originally by: An Anarchyyt

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Originally by: Cpt Fina

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Common sense - the unreflective opinions of ordinary men
Webster's English Dictionary

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Actually, according to Merriam-Webster, common sense is defined as:

Main Entry:
common sense
Function:
noun
Date:
1726
: sound and prudent judgment based on a simple perception of the situation or facts

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Originally by: Ki Tarra

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Originally by: Cpt Fina

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The problem is that it's too hard to avoid fulfilling CCP's criteria of being a guilty person.

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Please back this claim up with any real world example. You make a claim, back it up.

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My claim that it is easy to avoid the critria of being guilty when innocent is currently backed by a well established appeals process that has to date not left a single case open for public review where someone that was falsely accused did not have the ruling overturned in the appeals process.

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Originally by: An Anarchyyt

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You said Webster's Dictionary, that is the definition from Webster's Dictionary.

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Originally by: Ki Tarra

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Originally by: Cpt Fina

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Yes, I did

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Would it helped if I did a find/replace in my earlier post to change it to the definition found on the official merriam-websters website, as that is the definition that I was using the phase based on.

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Originally by: CCP Prism X

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We don't do mistakes intentionally. I can't promise, on the behalf of others, that they'll become perfect human beings just because mistakes are unacceptable to those who never make them.

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Originally by: Grawshellar

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Edited by: Grawshellar on 12/09/2007 19:07:50

Originally by: Cpt Fina

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Originally by: CCP Prism X

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We don't do mistakes intentionally. I can't promise, on the behalf of others, that they'll become perfect human beings just because mistakes are unacceptable to those who never make them.

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Don't worry, with the blurry guidelines given you'd probably never have to admit comitting a mistake in this matter and GMs will have a very liberal definition of offenders to apply.

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Thats awesome, the way someone hangs their head and you keep kicking them in the ribs like that, can I get lessons

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Originally by: Grawshellar

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Originally by: Cpt Fina

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PrismX offered to help the OP, which is great.
However, he didn't show any willingness to address this issue which he referred to as "hysteria". That really makes me feel that IÆm being taken seriously and with respect.

Even though Prismx isn't going to read this thread anymore doesn't mean that the subjectis obsolete.

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He came right out and said that they have guidelines to differentiate between ISK sellers and scammers.

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He also said he couldn't disclose much information so as to avoid giving the ISK sellers too much information.

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I don't know what else he could do, at this point you either take it on faith that they care enough to be careful to avoid wrongful banning, or you don't.
It's pretty much that simple.

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Originally by: Grawshellar

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Originally by: Cpt Fina

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Yeah I agree it's pretty much that simple. If you get banned you'll just have to trust that CCP have gathered enough evidence, which you're not aware of, to come to the conclusion that you are an iskbuyer, which you may not be in control of.

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I don't really know where to go from there. At this point if you're concerned with getting a ban in this manner, you have to be one of those people who are constantly afraid of getting struck by lightning.

You know the basics of what to avoid, but you have no way to SPECIFICALLY know where to stand to assure you don't get fried.

If you want to walk in the rain, you gotta risk it.

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Originally by: Grawshellar

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There are a lot of causes to champion in this world, this is the one you pick?

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Originally by: Grawshellar

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Although I hate to fall back to an argument that I previously fought against, we've yet to see anyone yet come forward with a claim of being unfairly treated who followed the basic rules we do know. Even the OP who started this trainwreck of a thread decided that once the thread passed the "rabble rabble" point and help was offered he'd bow out and keep quiet :P

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Originally by: Grawshellar

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Originally by: Cpt Fina

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Again: The problem isn't that innocent people are getting punished. The problem is that it's too hard to avoid fulfilling CCP's criteria of being a guilty person.

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Heh, how do you know how hard it is to avoid fulfilling their criteria, GIVEN THAT YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS :P

Simple answer, is you can't.

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You need to argue that not knowing their criteria causes undue strain on you or some ****e like that, to really have a point here.

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Fact is, we've yet to hear from the "wrongfully accused". We've heard from 2 people, one who has so far refused help in the matter, and another who was likely selling GTCs in an insecure manner.

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Originally by: Grawshellar

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YOU: The problem is that it's too hard to avoid fulfilling CCP's criteria of being a guilty person.

ME: This can't be the problem. You couldn't possibly know if this was a problem. It might be HORRIBLY EASY to avoid fulfilling their criteria.

YOU: My point exactly?????

Please explain

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Originally by: Grawshellar

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You claim the guidelines are insufficient, and because of this we are all at risk of being caught as isk buyers, based on the fact that it is easy to fulfill their criteria of an isk buyer.

No amount of restating this makes up for the fact that this is not a fact. You make the assumption that it is easy to be mislabeled as an isk buyer.

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Of course we are going to ban you for selling 1 unit of Veldspar for half a billion ISK to a known ISK seller.

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Of course there are no magic numbers for when a transaction becomes suspect.

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Originally by: Grawshellar

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This is not a fact. The exact thing you stated as the problem is built on a possibly false assumption.

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Originally by: Grawshellar

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That point aside, what is your goal here?

If your whole point is to get a list of guidelines that will assured you are not labeled as an ISK buyer, you're dreaming. Releasing such a guide would defeat the purpose of the system. THOSE PEOPLE CAN READ THE FORUMS AND USE IT TOO. Its horribly obvious you cannot get such a thing.

So what do you hope to achieve?

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Originally by: Cadela Fria

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You forget a few things though.
Guidelines != Definitive rules, or rules at all for that matter.
Common Sense != Definitive, in fact, common sense can quite ambiguous.
Hysteria == Overreacting to something and blowing it up to be something really serious and "0mFg!! SKAI ES FAWLIN!!1!11".

When CCP/Prism says "Guidelines", you read "Definitive rules!! OMG DESE R TEH COMMANDMENTS OF ISK LAUNDRY!!"
What he means is (I think anyway, feel free to correct me Prism):
"isk sellers are bad, m'kay? you shouldn't sell isk, because that'd be bad, m'kay? cause isk sellers are bad, m'kay? If you do sell isk, you're bad. Because isk sellers bad, m'kay?
So don't be bad, by selling isk, that'd be bad..cause isk sellers are bad.

I'm a turtle!! hear me roar!
/sketch

Chances are if you are not doing anything illicit (sp?) with isk outside the boundaries of the EULA, then you're in no trouble at all.
Carry on as you always did, don't worry and just enjoy the game :)
If in all unlikelyhood it happens that you get banned for isk laundry or acts related thereof, and you're TRULY innocent - You'll be fine, so don't panic!
The guidelines here are to make your life in EVE easier and give you an idea of what can(not will) happen :)

You might think it's annoying for you to deal with the possibility of being framed or temporarily suspended for isk laundry suspicioun. Imagine how annoying it is for us to actually having to fight these goobers constantly! (isk sellers) and trying to sort them from the good and honest players.
We don't like isk sellers, we don't want them to be here, but they are! :(
It is a wonder to me why GM's aren't addicts of nerve and headache medication yet!

Did I mention I'm a turtle? :D

Also uhmm..Just, you know..think before you act, it can save you a lot of trouble, common sense goes a long way.
"
(My translation of what Prism said anyway).

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Also on the argument of what common sense is - If you're going to get into details like that and worry about it, then I highly suggest, as a fellow human being to another, that you switch your worries from CCP's definition of "Common Sense", to your own state of paranoia.

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Just...chill out, alright? The world isn't ending, and no matter what you may try to push that poor skull and brain of yours: No, this issue is not a serious life-ending threat to you, relax..calm down, have a beer and watch Oveur tapdance!

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Originally by: Grawshellar

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Quote:

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Of course we are going to ban you for selling 1 unit of Veldspar for half a billion ISK to a known ISK seller.

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Of course there are no magic numbers for when a transaction becomes suspect.

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Those two lines, to you, indicate that being mislabeled as an isk buyer is easy? Did you have a nice bowl of paranoia for breakfast?

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Here's a few basic assumptions I feel are justified, feel free to disagree.

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If you really want to achieve anything, how about, I dunno, starting a thread specifically to warn other people about ways to avoid being labeled an isk buyer, and maybe get feedback on what other peoples opinions are as well?

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Originally by: Cadela Fria

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I don't see this alledged "label" of which you speak

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Originally by: Cadela Fria

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You can't make sure..you never can, simple as that.

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Just let it go, I'll provide a beer and just, you know..play the game Smile

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Originally by: Grawshellar

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Originally by: Cpt Fina

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What I'd like to see is a system in which legit players don't have to adjust their gameplay/make any sacrifices/get banned when fighting the isksellers.

People will draw the line differently. Some are willing to make sacrifices to fight "evil". Some will say that if the playerbase suffer from the war against isk-sellers the war is allready lost.

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I'm sure that CCP would love such a system as well. Would most certainly make their CS jobs easier. Would stop the bad publicity that comes with banning an "innocents". the only reason I can imagine for such a system not to already be in place would be the fact that it is either impossible, or no one has figured out the proper way to implement it.

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There is no evil and no war

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Originally by: Cadela Fria

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Edited by: Cadela Fria on 12/09/2007 22:47:49

Originally by: Cpt Fina

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Originally by: Cadela Fria

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I don't see this alledged "label" of which you speak

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Although I understand if Prismx is tired with listening to complaints all day, labeling a thread in which players are asking for means to avoid getting banned as hysteria is wrong imo.

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It is hysteria though. It's a case of hypothetic situations that might, possibly, perhaps, maybe, could happen..It's not an encroaching threat that's moving in on you like a pair of evil dustballs on the prowl for your toes.
Ya see? It's not a massive plague that's spreading rapidly..we're talking very very few instances.
The forum here is self-evident to this..how often do you see a topic like this?..once?..twice every second month?...even less then that perhaps?.

I mean whatever, you're entitled to your opionion, but, don't hurt your brain and nerves doing it.

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Originally by: Grawshellar

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As to a war, its not a war. One side doesn't fight back! CCP bans the isk sellers en masse, and all they can do is take it and try to recover and come back with a new account. Its more of a slaughter really, I definitely wouldn't refer to it as a war under any circumstance!

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Originally by: Decarus

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Originally by: Cpt Fina

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Of course we are going to ban you for selling 1 unit of Veldspar for half a billion ISK to a known ISK seller.

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Of course there are no magic numbers for when a transaction becomes suspect.

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Grawshellar: I've been reading these past pages of flamewarz with much interest. You totaly fail at pointing this use of selective omission from quotes, used to back up your opponsets arguments, against him. You kinda lose on that imo.

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Originally by: Grawshellar

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Originally by: Cpt Fina

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Haha, want to get into another discussion whether this can be classified as a war or not?

I will simply say that you can.

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The isk sellers cannot offer meaningful resistance.

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Originally by: Decarus

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Originally by: CCP Prism X

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Of course we are going to ban you for selling 1 unit of Veldspar for half a billion ISK to a known ISK seller.
Of course there are no magic numbers for when a transaction becomes suspect. You're implying that the numbers are the only thing that matters. We wouldn't need GMs then, I'd write a script which would eventually ban you all and I'd have to find a new job.
We have GMs because of the human factor. We need their intuition. With this intuition comes the so called 'Human Nature' which is flawed which leads us to doing mistakes even when our intentions are angelic.

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No, this would be the proper quote in my opinion. The omitted part makes the whole thing alot clearer and even implies that the Veldspar quote was just an arbitrary example because the Dev already said he couldn't elaborate at all.

Don't know, maybe it's just me. I do enjoy using selective quoting against those who use them. I just wanted to be a part of this dooms day prophecy.

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Originally by: Grawshellar

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Originally by: Cpt Fina

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Even tho Poland didn't put up a real fight when Germany attacked them it is still considered that Germany declared war.

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Isk sellers are hardly Poland. They don't put up any fight. They are Ghandi, without the morally superior high ground :P

Would you say that Ghandi declared war on the British? :P

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Originally by: Grawshellar

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Originally by: Cpt Fina

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No i'd say that he demonstrated against opression. Much like i'm doing in this thread :P

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In the same way the the ISK sellers are demonstrating against their oppression. And CCP definitely oppresses them!

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Originally by: Kylar Renpurs

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Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 12/09/2007 23:31:04
Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 12/09/2007 23:30:10

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Even tho Poland didn't put up a real fight when Germany attacked them it is still considered that Germany declared war.

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Ah,, dammit, who's law is it that states all online discussions degenerate into talks about Germany, WW2 and ****'s?

Three cheers for off topic.

EDIT: Godwins law :)

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Godwin's Law (also known as Godwin's Rule of **** Analogies)[1] is an adage formulated by Mike Godwin in 1990. The law states:[2]

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving ****s or ****** approaches one.

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Originally by: Grawshellar

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Originally by: Cpt Fina

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Or in the way that there's a state of conflict (war) between the two.

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There was a 'state of conflict' between Ghandi and the British, but you already said you wouldn't call that war.

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war
Pronunciation: 'wor
Function: noun

2 a : a state of hostility, conflict, or antagonism b : a struggle or competition between opposing forces or for a particular end <a class war> <a war against disease

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Originally by: Kylar Renpurs

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Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 12/09/2007 23:49:22

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When discussing the definition of war, WW2 comparisons are OK imo.

It's really amusing how you don't have anything but this to provide to the discussion and I really hope, for your own sake, that your post isn't a fair display of your intellect.

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I've put my content four pages ago when this topic had a point.

I'll say it again if you missed my repost two pages ago. The OP has NOT proven his innocence, in fact there's a considerable lack of information which COULD prove his innocence, and the OP hasn't said this to prove his point.

Many other people who've come out of the woodwork and said "It's happened to me too" have also failed to prove their innocence. Until anyone does this, there's really no reason to be concerned about this action by GM's.

This topic was about a GM stripping isk away from his account, and whether GM's condone this or not.

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Do you condone your gm's making players lose there hard earned ships and isk by riping them off..

The question^^


A certain player sells rattlesnake on open contract other player buys it gm comes along says it was sold to a known isk seller and takes the isk he just got for the ship,,the ship itself and then take another bill off him aswell and that = lost player and soon
many more to come if this type of thing is aloud to keep up

The scenario ^^

Something must be done about this abuse of power by gm's ingame.its not the first time I've heard of this happening.

Don't bother telling me this is the first time you've heard this cause i know it is not.

What are you going to do about this me as a customer of your fine product would really like to know..
[i] The conclusion

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NOT the definition of a war on isk-sellers, proper quoting of each other, comparisons to passive and aggressive actions, and evaluations of each others posts, ergo, you and Graw's ramblings are completely off topic and derailed any meaningful progress of this thread.

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